the Hive BB
  Methods Discourse
  Anhydrous Alcohol

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Anhydrous Alcohol
CHEMMAN
Member
posted 10-09-1999 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CHEMMAN     
To rid an alcohol,say methanol of water.would it work ok to use calcium chloride,or would
fractioning be better??

Modesty
Member
posted 10-10-1999 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Modesty     
Or maybe CaO will be better for alcohols?

Somaz
Junior Member
posted 10-10-1999 06:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Somaz     
CaCl2 will work fine. Wash it with your solvent before adding if you're so inclined.
It can be a good idea to store your alcohols over CaCl2 anyway - that way any water they absorb will be trapped in the solid.

Penis Seinfeld
Member
posted 10-10-1999 08:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Penis Seinfeld     
CaCl2 cannot be used to dry alcohols, as it forms complexes with many alcohols.

KOH, BaO, CaO, NaOH, and K2CO3 are all good for drying alcohols (I don't think the hydroxides can be used for lower alcohols).

I'm pretty sure that the sulfate salts (Mg, Cu, Na & Ca) can be used to dry alcohols too.

You might want to use CaO, followed by CaSO4 to get the last bit of H20 out.

PS

Cherrie Baby
Member
posted 10-10-1999 11:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cherrie Baby     
I would use Na2SO4 or MgSO4 to dry alcohol.

CaCl2 forms a complex with alchols and this can actually be used to purify an alcohol [MDP2Pol??] much like the bisulphite complex is used to purify ketones. Vogel mentions this in a synth of Phenethyl alcohol. It works best for primary alcohols.

CHEMMAN
Member
posted 10-11-1999 02:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CHEMMAN     
Many thanks to you all Will try wot has been suggested!

Osmium
Member
posted 10-11-1999 05:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Osmium     
Most of the methods do not work for drying alcohols. Why do they use Na, molecular sieves, etc at the local university?

Dry your alcohols with Mg (see Vogel for details).

Somaz
Junior Member
posted 10-11-1999 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Somaz     
Eeep. Shamed myself with that one. Sorry for the misinformation + thanks for correcting me.
While we're on the subject... what are your recommended drying agents/methods for acetone?

Modesty
Member
posted 10-11-1999 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Modesty     
There was a comprehensice posting about drying different stuff a while back. Does anyone remember who posted this?
Hmm. thinking - could it have been Rathead?

Acme
Member
posted 10-11-1999 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Acme     
Stir for awhile over sodium sulfate, then pass down a column of Lindlar 4A sieves.

Xerxes
Member
posted 10-11-1999 06:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xerxes     
i was waiting for someone to mention that. i brought it up in the chem forum a couple weeks ago or so. here's titanium's version of that rathead post.
http://hive.lycaeum.org/ubb_board/Forum3/HTML/000832.html

Penis Seinfeld
Member
posted 10-11-1999 07:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Penis Seinfeld     
Here are some good drying rules to live by:

Drying Agents


  • Acidic
    H2SO4, P2O5 - especially good for hydrocarbons or their halogenated derivatives. Cannot be used for bases, for unsaturated compounds, or for most N- or O- containing compounds. P2O5 reacts irreveribly to give H3PO4.

  • Basic
    K2CO3, KOH, BaO, CaO, NaOH - Good for drying alcohols and amines. Last four cannot be used with ester (hydrolysis) or aldehydes (condensation) (NOTE: I'm assuming that the last four cannot be used with some ketones either)

    CaH2 - Good for ethers and hydrocarbons. Will react with alcohols and amines or any compound with a reasonably acidic proton.

  • Neutral
    MgSO4, CuSO4 - high intensity, high capacity. CuSO4 cannot be used with amines. These are often fine powders which may make removal from solution difficult

    Na2SO4 - low intensity, high capacity. Granular form makes for easy removal.

    CaSO4 - high intensity, low capacity. Often used after drying agent of higher capacity has been used.

    CaCl2 - Moderate intensity, moderate capacity. Forms complexes with O- and N- containing compounds, especially amines and alcohols, but also many aldehydes, esters, etc...

If the substance to be dried is a non-viscous liquid and there is a relatively large amount of it, it may be dried directly. If there is only a small amount of the liquid, or the liquid is viscous, it should be dissolved in an anhydrous solutions and then the solution dried. This process minimizes loss of compound by absorption/adsorption onto the drying agent.

Ok, this is getting to long, I will summarize:


  • make sure that the container you use has a wide, flat bottom (such as an erlenmeyer flask) to permit the greatest surface exposure of the drying agent. (NOTE: this obviosuly doesn't apply if you will eb doing tons of shaking)
  • keep together for minimum of 20-30 mins.
  • make sure container is closed/stoppered
  • drying is most intense and efficient at lower temperatures. In most cases absorption of water is reversible, and higher temps shift the equilibrium in the wrong direction
  • cotton is a suitablt filter when granular drying agents are used.

Hope this helps someone. Actually, it better fucking help someone, cause that was a lot of typing.

PS

Penis Seinfeld
Member
posted 10-11-1999 07:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Penis Seinfeld     
Oh yeah, you should occasioanlly swirl/gently shake no matter what.

Sorry for the typos.

PS

CHEMMAN
Member
posted 10-12-1999 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CHEMMAN     
Thanks all.Wow Penis thanks for a top effort
MUCH APPRECIATED.This is good info for all types of drying!!!

Night Trojan
Member
posted 10-17-1999 08:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Night Trojan     
I read that CaC2 can be used to dry alcohols. I saw some in a camping supply store (OTC) for use with carbide (acetylene) lamps. Might be comparable to CaO.

Penis Seinfeld
Member
posted 10-17-1999 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Penis Seinfeld     
There is no such thing as CaC2. If you meant CaCl2, then you didn't read this thread.

PS

K.C. Nicolaou
Member
posted 10-18-1999 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for K.C. Nicolaou     
Penis- CaC2 does in fact exist. It is manufactured by heating CaO and coke (carbon, not the other one ) to very high temperatures. The C2(2-) is in the form of the dianion of acetylene. This may be an extremely dangerous choice as a drying agent!! A chemistry professor I once had did a demonstration where he dropped a chunk of CaC2 into a thick plexiglass tube containing about 1" of water. When this is done, acetylene and heat are generated, and an explosion ensued . My feeling is that MgSO4, CaSO4, and CuSO4 are all good OTC drying agents for ethanol.

Xaja
Member
posted 10-18-1999 05:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Xaja     
Once upon a time bike lamps utilized CaC2 with water dripping on them to create an "actylene lamp" for riding at night.
Believe it or don't, but thats what I read somewhere.

Penis Seinfeld
Member
posted 10-18-1999 07:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Penis Seinfeld     
Okay, after I remove my foot from my mouth, I'll go back and sit quietly in my bioglogy corner.

PS

KrZ
Member
posted 10-18-1999 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KrZ     
Anyone have any experience with drying solution of MeAm and MeOH?

K.C. Nicolaou
Member
posted 10-18-1999 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for K.C. Nicolaou     
KrZ- Not MeOH and MeAm specifically, but I've used molecular sieves (3A I think) in an EtOH/amine/aldehyde solution to push the equilibrium towards imine formation in a reductive amination using NaBH4. I also have read an old synthesis reference where MgSO4 was used for the same purpose. If you were to use MgSO4, it would be much more likely to complex a little bit of MeOH than to complex any MeNH2, so you should be able to get away with MgSO4 as long as you don't use to much. Also, MgSO4 should not react with NaBH4. Hope that helps.

All times are CT (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | the Hive

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.39a
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 1999.